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Post by Sir Trevor on Aug 2, 2009 21:05:56 GMT -5
Ok, for those of you who are not up to speed. For years, people in power in Trumbull Township have been trying to close down our faire. Larry has spent years, and lots of money fighting them. All that finally came to a conclusion with Larry winning yet again. You can read the actual legal opinion here. If you have the time I suggest you read it, as it covers a lot of the BS that Larry has put up with over the years. And shows how he has won the fight every step of the way. Now, since they couldn't take Larry (and the faire) down with a head on approach. They are now trying to come at things sideways. They are going after the vendors at our faire. They are hoping to drive away the vendors which would lead to the faire being shut down. I don't have time to go into details about what they are doing at the moment. But I wanted to give you this much to get you started. As there is a chance that this may actually work, and we will no longer have a faire to go to next year. We need to rally together. Support the vendors, support he faire, and shine some light on the things these people are doing.
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Jezzy MacPeaks
Upper Class
Jezabel "Jezzy the Butcher" MacPeaks, Red Pirate Queen
Posts: 77
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Post by Jezzy MacPeaks on Aug 2, 2009 21:38:21 GMT -5
I say we should all say, "Hell No! We won't go!" I can see how their BS citations presented by the police could be quite intimidating, but I think "most" of the vendors have been here long enough to know what's going on and they won't be scared off that easily.It's been going on for several years and it seems they try a new tact every year. I can also see that "some" vendors are battle-weary and might prefer to take their business elsewhere. My hope is that "everyone" will fight this fight together and win! Hopefully if Larry wins this next battle, Trumbull Township will have no more recourse and give up! Yes, I might be living in a dreamworld, but it's one worth fighting for!
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Allyn
Mercenary
Posts: 232
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Post by Allyn on Aug 2, 2009 22:49:23 GMT -5
Trevor, Thanks for posting a link to the legal opinion. After reading this it gets more confusing. Seems like he has complied ALL along, and has gotten nothing in return from the trustees but grief. Looks like the same people complaining even AFTER a court of law has made a ruling. Jezzy....You are right, if everyone who loves this Faire stands TOGETHER we are a huge voice and one to be listened too! Allyn
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Olive
Upper Class
Posts: 89
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Post by Olive on Aug 3, 2009 9:27:41 GMT -5
Take a deep breath everyone and make sure you have the FACTS.
I believe there are TWO THINGS LEGALLY GOING ON here.
Thank you Trevor for the link to the court ruling! Please note that this court decision is about ZONING (not vendors) and Larry has WON against arbitrary zoning conditions imposed by the TOWNSHIP BOARD OF ZONING. This is good for our Faire.
The matter of TRANSIENT VENDOR'S LICENSES which is the current harrassment is ENTIRELY ANOTHER MATTER. It involves an entirely different statutory authority, namely the Ohio Department of Taxation.
Now it IS THE LAW that vendors selling TAXABLE GOODS in Ohio must have a license which is the means for them to pay and the State to collect its legal sales tax. I do not know whether our vendors have this or not, whether they charge tax or not (Black Ox Cottage does not sell any taxable goods--thus we are exempt from this requirement.) But according to my research of the O.R.C. and my experience as a businessperson in Ohio, our vendors would have to have this license and collect state sales tax, regardless of being on private property or not.
Faire staff has told vendors that Larry's lawyers have argued the vendor's license issue and that supposedly vendors do not need them when invited onto private property, but I am not certain if this is correct. I have not seen any rulings on this. There have been recent changes and increased strictness in sales tax laws in recent years.
It could be possible that this matter of vendor's licenses is a legitimate and legal cause if it has to do with the state sales tax.
I just caution all of us to not confuse apples with oranges over all this. Zoning restrictions and tax issues are very different. Certain township officials are indeed be trying to use both of them to get rid of our Faire. The Faire's legal victory over zoning abuses does not necessarily mean everything is in compliance in this license issue. I don't know. I just ask you please don't go to any officials and make unsubstantiated claims.
Certainly tell them you enjoy the Faire, you spend money in the county, the Faire is peaceful and orderly, the Faire benefits the local economy, etc. But try not to give opinions or make assertions about legal stuff if you are not CERTAIN, or it will damage our credibility. Just tell them the stuff you ARE an expert about: your positive experiences and gratitude about GLMF and/or Larry Rickard.
I welcome clarification, correction, or insight on all this and don't claim to have all the info. But zoning and tax issues are separate. Let's be wise.
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Post by Capt. Morgan on Aug 3, 2009 9:37:06 GMT -5
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fairemomrita
Mercenary
some say you are never given more than you can handle, I wish they didn't trust me so much!! :-)
Posts: 217
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Post by fairemomrita on Aug 3, 2009 9:48:49 GMT -5
Olive thank you for your information. as I am also vendor i can answer some of that issue. the problem is not that the vendors do not have a licence as most that i have talked to DO have them. the problem comes because the township is trying to say that a STATE vendor licence is not good enough! they want us to have one for the township! kinda stupid if you ask me.
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Post by Griffins Wife on Aug 3, 2009 9:57:06 GMT -5
The citations given this weekend to vendors was not for Ohio tax licenses it was for township vendors license. All vendors selling product are required to have an Ohio transient vendors license. This township license is a total unknown.
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Post by Captain John Stout on Aug 3, 2009 11:52:15 GMT -5
The township cannot by constitutional law require a separate township vendor license if the state already gives one. That is part in parcel what the entire State Sovereignty battle is about.
If a higher government authority issues a legislation a lower government group cannot issue a contradictory piece of legislation. That would be like having to get a driver's license in every county you plan to drive in as well as the state.
The township cannot require you to do something the state already allows by its own license. That was what I learned in all those social studies classes anyways. If I am wrong about that please someone correct me.
From what I understood, the township was at some point trying to make people register their Ohio Transient Vendor's License with the township for a fee. But since you already paid a fee to the state for your license, you cannot be forced to do so again. Especially since the issuing authority is the state, and not the township.
I may not have the entire grasp of the legality issues here, since I was not cited for any of this, but I think that was the issue at hand a few years ago when they tried this before.
Even if all they were doing was citing businesses who didn't have the license to show, then they should only have been citing the business owners, not the seasonal employees who are just working there and don't own the business.
In my own opinion, this is just an attempt by a disgruntled trustee to destroy something he doesn't like. It is the worst kind of political tactic, because our founding fathers didn't intend the law of this nation to be used as a weapon.
Well, that's all I have to say for right now.
Post Note - obviously after reading the ORC 505.94 it is obvious that the authority to do what the township is doing IS actually allowable by Ohio law. I think that sucks, but apparently that is the case.
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Olive
Upper Class
Posts: 89
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Post by Olive on Aug 3, 2009 12:29:22 GMT -5
Great info and clarification, Rita, Griin's wife, and Cpt. Stout. Yes, if the township is trying to impose its own license above and beyond Ohio's, that could be contended.
And I know firsthand what it is for people to "use" police officers to do their personal dirty work by "sicking" those officers on their enemies in petty and frivolous ways (I'm a former Ohio Peace Officer myself.) The cops and the courts will resent it if that is happening.
Thanks you all. Pimento and I love every one of you.
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Post by Griffins Wife on Aug 3, 2009 13:31:32 GMT -5
After reading the information that was posted regarding the "Trumbell Township Transient Vendors resolution 2009" I am downright annoyed at this whole thing now.
Yes the court will probably throw this out for this year. However, the ordinance has been created specifically for our faire and our vendors and they want way too much money for a 90 day license. The township is not expecting us to pay, they are expecting us to leave. Well that will not happen. I have been told 2 things should happen, we should start contacting the County commissions office and the papers. This township's board members are trying to make us vendors go away, the county will not want that to happen because they lose money, and a lot of it.
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Post by Capt. Morgan on Aug 3, 2009 14:20:06 GMT -5
Asking a question posed by one of our "distant and adopted GLMF-ers" from VA:
Wanting to get my "far and away voice" heard and I can send duplicate letters - but of the (really long) list on Trevor's site - which contacts would you say would get the most "bang for my buck"?
Anyone?
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Post by BeerBlessings on Aug 3, 2009 15:59:40 GMT -5
Ya know.. I have mentioned this before, but have yet to give my opinion to the Powers That Be on it...
Pub Sing this year at Drift is MEH. Unless you're in the first half (maybe 2/3) of the seats, you have a hard time knowing what's going on until mugs are raised for Health to the Company. And if you're in the back, all you can tell is if someone is talking or musicians are playing. That's IT, even if you try to pay attention. (Part acoustics prolly?)
BUT
When Gibbon started talking on Sunday... It was normal when he started.. Half-way through all the seats and the pub were quiet, and near the end, the ENTIRE audience was quiet and listening, even all those in the very back. That was most impressive.. And the King's talk echoed across the ears of all those that Gibbon had been able to bring.
I do not recall everything that was said, but I would love to see some sort of transcript, especially for those that were not there for what may be one of our most important pieces of oratory that I can remember at Faire. Gibbon? King Larry? How are your respective memories?
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Post by Sir Trevor on Aug 3, 2009 17:02:57 GMT -5
For those who wish to read the latest version of the transient vendor legislation, it is on the Trumbull website. www.trumbulltownship.org/TRANSIENT_VENDOR_RESOLUTION_2009.pdfApparently passed on 6/25/09 not sure when it actually took effect hough. For those who cannot read PDF files, there is a google html version though it cuts off the last page. On that last page it mentions other legislation that was adopted in 2005 and amended in 2007 that this now supercedes. So, you can see they have been trying to do this for a while now. I am still trying to find copies of both versions of those to link to.
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Jezzy MacPeaks
Upper Class
Jezabel "Jezzy the Butcher" MacPeaks, Red Pirate Queen
Posts: 77
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Post by Jezzy MacPeaks on Aug 3, 2009 17:13:09 GMT -5
I wish it had all been recorded. It was truly moving. One thing Gibbon had mentioned was in regards to all the charities Larry supported through the faire, and stating that due to the cost of fighting this legal battle, he's unable to continue to support them. I think it would be good to know which charitie were benefitting from GLMF, and which ones are now suffering from the loss. It's a shame it has to be like this. Gee, I wonder if the newly announced "Redneck" Festival's animal charity will have to suffer from this kind of prolonged legal insanity?
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Post by Sir Trevor on Aug 3, 2009 17:20:12 GMT -5
Nope. They won't have a problem. It's in Monroe. They have no zoning there.
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